Ross vs auc

A few students don't pass 2nd, then 3rd, then 4th. The "finish on time" argument is tricky when it comes to AUC (and Ross). parallel_backend context. med schools (probably selectively on par with good D. 92 cum, 2. That connotes a few different possible scenarios. t. The gist is that models should be compared on strictly proper scoring rules, while a metric like ROCAUC is appropriate for assessing if a single model is any good but is 28. #6. Jan 10, 2018 · The framing of question sounds like lower AUC is better. 80 → PR-AUC = 0. May 22. factors at both schools. J. The ROC is a graph which maps the relationship Aug 28, 2006 · I've heard that you need to secure about $250,000. Of the combined 721 AUC and RUSM graduates that secured Jul 2, 2011 · The first exam is two months into the semester. While many clinicians/institutions are targeting the same AUC range whenever vancomycin therapy is employed, we have to remember that most of the data and recommendations come from patients with serious Staphylococcus aureus infections. These are what I consider if 2 cycles did not work out for me in the US wether thats MD or DO. By total cost I mean tuition, books, rent, food, etc. This higher acceptance rate makes them an attractive choice for people who lack the transcript to get into US medical schools. Because of my low gpa, I was wondering what are my chances of getting into these schools(non MERP). #3. Jan 26, 2017. Ross was cheaper, but Dominica had (and still has due to the recent hurricane, I believe) less developed infrastructure and fewer island "amenities" than Grenada. I chose it over AUC as it had more name recognition and felt more established. And this is from people who went to Ross putting down the school they went to. 43 = 0. 4) number of university (rather than community or university community affiliate program students at the school match to). Edit: Saw a downvote. ROSS is only recommended for real Commando's. 6 science gpa: 3. It's true that carribs get better chances of matching but if you go to another medical school abroad for way less and binge on anki, bnb and uworld early on, plus pay for 3-4 months of hands on, or apply via vslo like other imgs do, you'll match comfortably and have enough money saved in your bank or be in less debt. 21 and MCAT scores of 492. Answer the QUESTION being asked! Retake the MCAT. Forums Communities Pre-Med Medical Resident Audiology Dental Optometry Pharmacy Physical Therapy Podiatry Psychology Rehab Sci Veterinary Jan 25, 2024 · AUC stands for the Area Under the Curve, and the AUC curve represents the area under the ROC curve. S. Jul 12, 2009 · Um. MERP requires a $700 USD non-refundable seat deposit within 2 weeks of receiving your Preparation for Enrollment Packet to secure your seat. I know my mcat is above Jun 9, 2014 · Reaction score. Dec 9, 2000 · I'd appreciate any comparative info on AUC and Ross, particularly with respect to residency opportunities and the island life. 7 sci. The estimated administrative fee includes the items listed below under Estimated Administrative Fee. Length of match list doesn't tell enough because some schools are smaller than others. For example a US MD/DO will need just to pass the usmle to get into IM around a 180, you'll need a 200. From all of my research, I was told that SGU gives the better support than the other two schools. May 22, 2019 · AUC VS LOG LOSS. r. Ex: overall gpa: 3. medical school, your chances of May 19, 2009 · SGU ROSS AUC SABA are 1 million times better than AUA simply because you can practice in all 50 states when you graduate from there. I believe they have one but not sure of the hospital name. This is an adventure-biking sub dedicated to the vast world that exists between ultralight road racing and technical singletrack. Jun 7, 2004 · MCAT Study Schedules The 3 Month (100 Day) MCAT Study Schedule Guide: 2022 Edition Study Schedule Jan 26, 2017 · AUC/Ross. With imbalanced classes, it may be better to find AUC for a precision-recall curve. average_precision_score gives you a way to calculate AUPRC. St. One may trivially construct a model which has the same AUC but fails to minimize log loss w. O schools). Apr 5, 2017. Ross University School of Medicine has 28 clinical hospital affiliates across 9 states, as well as the District of Columbia. Generally, an AUC above 0. 5 indicates no diagnostic utility. You don't have to give your exact gpa/mcat. The provider can then input a new combination of dose Under the new pricing structure, the tuition is $9,500 and an estimated administrative fee is $4,000. The calculation determines the AUC 24 to be 349 µg/mL x hr (outside the target range). 8 is deemed acceptable for a diagnostic test, but this varies depending on the role of the test in the clinical pathway. The school won't fill out this form. com, lots of previous Ross students gripe about how horrible the island is. Jan 29, 2013 · Irish schools are just as hard to get into as many U. Feb 6, 2015. You'll likely have the same experience with below-standard preclinical instruction and the same kinds of clinical rotations, assuming you make it that far. Discover a U. . We provide in this work a multi-class extension of AUC that we call AUC{\textmu} that is derived from first principles of the binary class AUC. Is it Feb 7, 2015 · SGU, ROSS, SABA or AUC (maybe MUA) jimmer2374. Just give us a range of your overall gpa, science gpa and mcat. I was looking through valumed. AUC’s initial rate of 96% and RUSM’s of 95% are among the highest in Adtalem’s history and represents the fourth consecutive year at 90% or higher residency attainment. Feb 14, 2001 · How big is AUC's entering class? is it true that only 20% of students get to do clinicals in the US? And the residency placement rate is lower, like 50 or 60%? Do students have to arrange for their own clinicals or will you be placed into clinicals at specific sites in the US? Do you do the My work experience is global and I have lived in 4 countries and in my roles worked for global companies and I headed global med affairs and supported clients and internal sales teams globally. In this post we will go over the theory and implement it in Python 3. 1,001. If using the Sanford Guide vancomycin calculator, the daily dose range that will achieve the target AUC 24 of 400-600 µg/mL x hr is reported. Sgu has more rotation sites. If a student doesn’t pass at least one of those three exams, then he/she must come back the following semester for one last opportunity to take the exam. 5 to 1 where 1 is the best score and 0. None means 1 unless in a joblib. George's, but haven't heard Jun 29, 2021 · But graduates have trouble landing residencies and jobs. I currently have acceptances to both Ross U. If you are wanting to use accuracy as a metric, then I would encourage you to track other metrics as well, such as AUC or F1. Per CMS regulations, the performing facility cannot obtain the AUC information. Aug 27, 2020 · I only applied to AUC and SGU because I didn't have all of the course requirements for Ross. Search titles and first posts only. Maarten is a very comfortable island, a lot of rich people retire there, that being said for some people it might be distracting, although AUC is in a very quiet part of the island. 344 was in person, but I skipped a majority of the lectures because I could just read the slides myself at home. So I see lots of hate towards Carib schools, and they all have US creds, as well as the NY and Cali things that are needed. 5-3. Oct 25, 2010 · When I was at Ross, sometimes the class average on a particular test was 55%. I really don't want to give IELTS and was hoping to use my degree for the ECCTIS certificate. Dec 29, 2023 · So, myy GPA is a 2. Grades and scores still matter, but we recognize that the path to becoming a doctor is not always linear and we want to hear every applicant's story. -modeled curriculum, close-knit classes, and a community that genuinely cares about your success at the American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine. National Resident Matching Program®’s 2022 Main Dec 26, 2016 · Hello, I was accepted into Ross and AUC for medical school and MSAP for SGU. That means, we consider an applicant as a whole person rather than a mere set of grades and scores. But I believe its also the cheapest option and they have very large class sizes with 3x a year entry. A supportive community providing a positive alternative to SDN. 92. Number of jobs to run in parallel. The metric is calculated as the area underneath the Receiver Operating Characteristic Curve (ROC). Jan 1, 2020 · What is AUC and how is AUC information obtained? AUC is a program to validate the necessity and clinical appropriateness of advanced imaging exams. Search titles only By: Dec 27, 2020 · AUROC is the area under that curve (ranging from 0 to 1); the higher the AUROC, the better your model is at differentiating the two classes. For a single man, who has MCAT 26+, the best choice is St George's. Area Under the Curve is an (abstract) area under some curve, so it is a more general thing than AUROC. Welcome to r/CaribbeanMedSchool - A subreddit dedicated to those in or aspiring to attend medical school in the Caribbean, with a focus on practicing in the United States or Canada. Maarten). As both TPR and FPR range between 0 to 1, So, the area will always lie between 0 and 1, and A greater value of AUC denotes better model performance. RUSM or AUC; 4. This is due to AUC using the relationship between True Positive Rate and False Positive Rate to calculate the metric. 5. 80. 3. Just an old MDs thoughts. And because of these success rates, many people attend (alongside the fact that they have lower standards) -The problem is, people who don't make it weren't prepared for medical school in the beginning. 5 means the model is as good as random. SABA is the last resort, if you can NOT enter the first two. Especially interesting is the experiment BIN-98 which has F1 score of 0. ROC is a function of a threshold. In all seriousness, if you want to go Caribbean, go to SGU or don't go Caribbean at all. But let's be honest. Hand proposed an alternative calculation using a fixed cost weighting, and called this the H-measure - there is a package in R called hmeasure that will perform . However on this Forums Communities Pre-Med Medical Resident Audiology Dental Optometry Pharmacy Physical Therapy Podiatry Psychology Rehab Sci Veterinary Ireland. The students that do well go on to Ross, the ones that don't go to AUC. You have to look at cost; tell either school you got an offer from the other and often times they will give a pretty substantial scholarship in order to get your business *ahem This carboplatin dosing calculator uses the Calvert method to calculate the total carboplatin dose needed to achieve a given AUC (area under the free carboplatin plasma concentration versus time curve) while taking into account renal function. The average MCAT was 24 and the GPA was 3. AUPRC is the area under the precision-recall curve, which similarly plots precision against recall at varying thresholds. I understand they’re both pretty good non-competitive colleges How would you compare them Ross Vs AUC. AUC Acceptance Rate. Nov 20, 2008 · So, I know this is an age-old question/comparison, but I'd really appreciate some guidance for anyone who's willing to contribute. They have a shelf exam that you must pass before they will even let you take Step 1. 100% sgu. For the ROC AUC score, values are larger and the difference is smaller. Jun 19, 2023 · Ross, SGU, and AUC will all offer the same benefits to you. Jul 20, 2020 · The requirements for Ross University School of Medicine are below what was expected of incoming medical degree candidates at St. AUA grads can't practice in california, Arkansas, Missisippi, Tennessee, and a few other states that fallow the california list for approved medical schools, and that list is growing. One must understand crucial difference between AUC ROC and "point-wise" metrics like accuracy/precision etc. I would really appreciate if any current MS1/2 students can share their experience with the basic sciences curriculum difficulty, fairness of tests, comp exams, step 1, clinical rotations, residency attainment on the first attempt, housing, attrition, on-time graduation etc. I've heard from many ross students that student housing is 20 minutes away from campus and required a shuttle to get there whereas most of the students at AUC live 2-5 minutes walking distance from campus. If you dig deeper into the interweb, you can find horror stories from AUA and AUC and any of those other schools. Joined. Thanks for this wonderful post! I've recently been accepted to SGU for this August and I've heard that they secure a certain number of hospitals such that their students can complete their clinical rotations. 7, while it is 414's material, which there was a lot of, was also cool to learn about. Even St Matthews, MUA, and UMHS are a similar experience. AUC is where Devry puts the students that didn't make it into Ross. Jun 3, 2018 · SGU and Ross are consistently the most residency-placed graduates and have the most wide-spread name recognition of Caribbean medical schools. dotdoc said: I am looking to see if anybody knows total cost of attending the following schools: SGU, AUC, Ross, SABA, SMU, St James. ECCTIS Vs IELTS UKVI. "Certificate of Medical Education The Certificate of Medical Education (Form MED) is required from each medical school that you attended Nov 8, 2012 · In today's atmosphere the risks of obtaining a specialty residency are decreasing daily for IMG's, especially from Caribbean schools. All-road, crossover, gravel, monster-cross, road-plus, supple tires, steel frames, vintage bikes, hybrids, commuting, bike touring, bikepacking, fatbiking, single-speeds, fixies, Frankenbikes with ragbag parts and specs, etc. Its primary positive feature is that it aggregates across different threshold values for binary prediction, separating the issues of threshold setting from predictive power. All pre-requisite coursework must have been completed within ten years of the date of student application to RUSM or AUC; a. 0 represents a model with perfect The importance of AUC (area under the curve) AUC quantifies the overall accuracy of a diagnostic test. Australian schools love international full fee paying tuition dollars (you pay a lot more than the domestic students) and therefore they are much easier to get into for internationals. Carribean school is Caribean medical school. (Dominica) and American University of the Caribbean (St. Dec 16, 2018 · 4. 08. And then a few more students don't pass the Comp. n_jobs int, default=None. By Nathan Danneman and Kassandra Clauser. AU . Jul 24, 2014. – Björn. 901 Harry S Truman Dr. May 15, 2000 · For a single girl or a family, AUC is slightly better (safer); as I know that crime & drugs are bigger in Grenada. This means it makes little sense to compare models based on AUC. If you pass step you are almost guaranteed to match. Aug 22, 2017 · $\begingroup$ While your answer makes a lot of sense, I think that you may be referring to the traditional method of holdout cross validation. LM75 said: Stay away from both schools. Jun 3, 2010 · I did a search of this already but the threads were outdated. are all fair game here. The second is three weeks later, and the third exam is 2. ECCTIS is a bit more expensive but I'm okay with it as long as I get a positive and quick result. 344's lecture when I took it was also at an ungodly late evening slot, so driving back to campus after a ASU vs. Reaction score. A cumulative score of 490 or higher on the MCAT exam and a. Like DrStephenStrange said, DO is better but if you do go Carib, both the schools are functionally the same. Basic Sciences / On-Island. Located in the heart of Prince George's County, the state-of-the-art regional medical center offers access to primary and ambulatory care services, and serves as a tertiary care center for critically ill patients. Aug 3, 2020 · But according to the US government, ~64% of US students complete their medical education on time at AUC; 77% of US students complete their medical education on time at SGU. Sep 5, 2023 · However, the F1 score is lower in value and the difference between the worst and the best model is larger. I was accepted to both AUC and SGU and I decided AUC would be the best fit for me due to significantly smaller class sizes, cheaper tuition, much more developed island, etc. Just going to say, Ross will put students into a program called MERP before they start med school. Back to the OP, and just so it's perfectly clear Jun 11, 2006 · Of Ross grads who survive, they do pretty well in the real world, its just a tougher environment and people should be aware of that. AUC’s acceptance rate is 47%, making them far less selective than most medical schools. You'll need to score 20 points higher on the Usmle to get into the residency spot you want. MCAT: 510-512. To be fair, however, I think Ross has a slightly better reputation and their rotations are more structured than AUC. Basic sciences at SABA: $6900+ each semester Dec 6, 2020 · Then dive down the rabbit hole (follow the links) to see the advantages of using metrics like log loss and Brier score (both of which are “strictly proper scoring rules”). Dec 5, 2022 · A vancomycin AUC of 400-600 mg·h/L range is recommended for most severe infections due to Staphylococcus aureus. But surely when applying k-fold (or stratified k-fold) cross validation we're deeming a k-th fraction of our training data to be the testing set, which means that the classification model with the highest mean AUC will be the model which can generalise Mar 29, 2019 · Brier Score is defined by the above function, which can be interpreted as how close the prediction is to the real case. Likely, there are alternatives to your situation. metrics. Please don't Nov 22, 2022 · As you mention, AUC is a rank statistic (i. See full list on caribbeanmedstudent. Jan 25, 2010 · AUC, SGU, Ross, Saba actually all finish Basic Sciences in 5 semesters, and roughly within the same length of time as well. states following initial results from the U. Both schools start new matriculants 3 times per year. I recently got accepted to both SGU and AUC and currently in the process of finalizing my decision. S. Accepted students have an average undergrad GPA of 3. Sep 30, 2020 · Nov 19, 2021 at 3:07. 7+ Year Member. and my mcat is 505(28 on the old one). The format was comparable to 344, but there were only 4 assignments, but they were relatively challenging. I also applied to St. Dec 20, 2021 · Both Adtalem medical schools, AUC and its affiliate Ross University School of Medicine (RUSM), are accredited institutions and leaders in addressing critical workforce needs for physicians of Both schools are basicallllyyy the same AUC is cheaper. #29. It measures the overall performance of the binary classification model. George, AUC and Ross. 80 P R A ( r) = e − 2 r → PR-AUC ≈ 0. The precision of model A A is higher than B B up to about 11% 11 % recall. Consider: Mar 31, 2019 · It doesn't make sense to take this generalized average and apply it to a specific school like SGU or Ross (especially when match rates are already posted for these schools and is over 90%). Aug 27, 2013 · Posted August 27, 2013. Apr 6, 2022 · Adtalem Global Education (NYSE: ATGE), a leading healthcare educator, today announced that more than 700 medical school graduates from American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine (AUC) and Ross University School of Medicine (RUSM) will begin residency training this summer in 44 U. Feb 7, 2019. The Precision-Recall AUC is just like the ROC AUC, in that it summarizes the curve with a range of threshold values as a single score. Dr. 1) it's one way, assuming randomly selecting records of appropriate and you don't need to match a particular split 2) see the Wikipedia article, the two are of course not unrelated, but AuC only cares about correct ranking and accuracy mostly about whether predicted probabilities are correctly >0. Examples of such Feb 28, 2007 · Is AUC that much better than Ross? Over on ValueMD. With that being said I believe at AUC (at least pre-COVID) they got to take each exam twice and was awarded their higher score which sounds interesting and not something we get at Ross. George's or AUC as well, making this school a good option if you faced adversity in your Bachelor studies. 43 P R B ( r) = 0. Most important factor is second chances and what happens if you fail classes, which a lot of people do. 4-3. I chose Ross over AUC and SGU at the time. zobay. First, the material is too hard and there's not enough time to learn it. Sep 16, 2020 · Precision-Recall Area Under Curve (AUC) Score. Practicing medicine in the states (SGU vs AUC vs ROSS) I am trying to decide which school i would PRA(r) PRB(r) = e−2r → PR-AUC ≈ 0. Pre-requisite course substitutions and/or exceptions may be granted at the sole discretion of the RUSM or AUC Faculty Admissions Committee; 5. When a high-quality education meets a culture of support, great things happen. Gini is a scaled version of auc and model 1s value is higher meaning better. " Mar 21, 2006 · I am trying to decide which school is better? Search titles and first posts only Jul 12, 2022 · AUC, or ROC AUC, stands for Area Under the Receiver Operating Characteristic Curve. George’s University in Grenada. I feel like Saba and other schools like MUA and SMU are more competitively priced and their match lists are quite good. Thank you. 0 signifies a perfect test, while an AUC of 0. I don't know about other schools, but SGU has a match rate of around 93%, and Ross 88%. If your dead set on Caribbean then choose between ross and AUC but not SGU since they don’t have the rotations in Michigan compared to ross and AUC. Yasien Eltigani, who attended St. “If you fall behind in a U. Students pass the USMLE with 93%+. If AUC offers you a scholarship, sgu will sometimes match it. r/ApplyingToCollege At AUC, we take a holistic approach to admissions. The score can then be used as a point of comparison between different models on a binary classification problem where a score of 1. Sep 2, 2021 · 3. The difference is they split up their semesters and breaks differently, and the different schools have different lengths of semesters and breaks. JacoMescudi said: Just looking for any advice/insight on deciding between SGU's August CFP, and September acceptance at both AUC or Ross. Training the estimator and computing the score are parallelized over the cross-validation splits. com In 2020, the majority of graduates from SGU, AUC, Saba University and Ross University matched with an internal medicine or family medicine residency program. It is widely recognized as being the top of the Caribbean medical schools and most academically Apr 26, 2004 · I also get the impression that Ross has more of a gunner-like environment. 5 weeks after that. Alternatively, something is wrong with the test. Btw if you fail the Usmle your done, average ross/aua medical school student fails the Uslme around 56% of the time. Now, think about that for a second: 55%. 1. I chose Ross over SGU due to the living situations (the housing, Barbados over Grenada) and cost. Jul 13, 2020 · Time from start of infusion to trough (T2, hours): 11. Largo, MD 20774. Nov 17, 2009 · According to the Ross seminar I attended a couple years back, the Ross Step 1 pass rates are something like ~90%. I believe they have a better match list than AUC/more established (I Jan 7, 2012 · 3) length of match list. I am considering a Global EMBA at IESE or the trium at HEC but also looking at regular EMBA programs at IESE, INSEAD, ESADE and HEC or LSE. #1. 45 and ROC AUC of 0. I suspect I was referring to the last column, gini valid. Could I please get some opinions on which school would be better and why? I do like AUC for their small class size but Oct 12, 2015 · Thank you in advance for your time. With imbalanced datasets, the Area Under the Curve (AUC) score is calculated from ROC and is a very useful metric in imbalanced datasets. George’s University School of Medicine SGU located on the island of Grenada was founded in 1976 is the largest and most established of the Caribbean medical school’s with 6300 active students 14,000 graduates and an academic staff nearing 2300. An AUC of 1. AUC’s mission is to train tomorrow’s physician I am trying to decide which Caribbean medical school is the better option and why? All the other threads are so old and things have changed. By applying to the borrowers program you are empowering the Dept of edu to sue the school to collect your forgiven loan. Please note that dose is provided in mg not mg/m 2. May 29, 2021 · Given that Ross and AUC are owned by the same parent company, most of their policies are similar in terms of dismissal. The near future the joining of the MD & DO ACGME programs will than offer the DO grads better placement options. Prices seem comparable, with SGU being much more expensive than the rest. Usually around half the class passes the first comp exam (first Jul 11, 2022 · In this episode, we will talk about our sister school American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine. 1 users. Address. Experience the AUC Difference. Area under the receiver operator curve (AUC) is a reasonable metric for many binary classification tasks. Apr 6, 2022 · Combined, AUC and RUSM combined achieved a 95% first-time eligible residency attainment rate as of April 6, 2022. some other model by scaling the predicted values. The score it produces ranges from 0. In order to sit for the USMLE Step 1 exam Mar 4, 2013 · So if you calculate the AUC on two different logitic regressions it won't be measuring "the same thing" in both cases. Given the application I presented, model A A is probably the best choice. Feb 9, 2020 · The Receiver Operating Characetristic (ROC) curve is a graphical plot that allows us to assess the performance of binary classifiers. There is not much of a difference if you went to SGU, Ross, AUC, Saba, or AUA. This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. This is new information ordering providers are required to provide before the patient receives the exam. From what I understand, Ross seems to have the higher attrition rate because they have the lowest standards and take the most students. 10, 2022 – Adtalem Global Education (NYSE: ATGE), a leading educator and provider of professional talent to the healthcare industry, has established a partnership between its two medical schools, American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine (AUC) and Ross University School of Medicine (RUSM), and Southern California University of Health Services (SCU) to expand Aug 27, 2020 · Jan 28, 2021. As an example from the medical board of California. Any current or recent grads (2-3 years ago) who would like to give their honest opinion about Ross or AUC? What was/is life like on the island? How are your classes/professors? How often do you study? Is attendance mandatory? AUC has considerably smaller classes, and SXM is more developed that Barbados. At the current moment I would only think about Ross or AUC if you must go Carib. to St. sklearn. For example, if the prediction we give to a data point is 0. I'm debating b/w SABA and Ross/SGU reason being is that SABA costs half as much as the other two. They say that the people admitted are "greasy, grimy, and gripe all the time". That's kind of like saying, "Well, the class average on an exam is 57%, therefore, all students failed. Its AUC is far worse, though. scale invariant) & log loss is a calibration statistic. I just finished sending in my transcipts, letters of rec etc. Also, competitive residency placements seem to be roughly equal: SABA really surprised me with the number of specialized residencies that were acquired AUC is not always area under the curve of a ROC curve. com & they were saying AUC is better. Aug 10, 2022 · CHICAGO – Aug. SABA is very small while Ross is huge for example. Admissions deadlines are four weeks before Jun 28, 2022 · I would recommend using AUC over accuracy as it’s a much better indicator of model performance. --But what they don't tell you is that many students never pass 1st semester. AUC/Ross Med School Experience. 1 First-time pass rate is the number of students passing the USMLE Step 1 exam on the first attempt divided by the number of students whose first attempt was in 2019-2023. e. in other words how much in total I would need over 4 years to attend each of the above schools. Mar 23, 2008 · Hi everyone, I know that SGU and Ross are presumably the best med schools in the carribean but my concern is the price tag. hello I'm from Pakistan and just wanted to know which route is the better option for skilled worker visa. It's kinda hard to give you guidance if you don't share your gpa and mcat. 3 Start Dates Oct 11, 2005 · I am trying to see the differences between these schools. x code. Prior work in this area has proven computationally intractable and/or inconsistent with known properties of AUC, and thus there is still a need for an improved multi-class efficacy metric. Okay so in terms of price, St George takes the cake but AUC and Ross will also leave you with debts upwards of 250 k. dl kn df oy na os cv ql fn vf